18 replies to this topic

[BluDevStudio]

Since this isn't a help topic I didn't post in the Web Design Forum.

This argument has gone on for a while now around the internet and I'm curious to find out what all of your opinions are on the matter.

Using Tables for Forums vs. Using DIV/CSS for Forums

I understand both sides of the argument tables are excellent for forums since forums are basically tabular data, but using div's and css gives you so much more flexibility in thinking outside the table if you will. Maybe forums don't have to necessarily look like forums at all.

So the question is, which do you like better? and Why? And given the choice of fully developed forum systems for both sides which would you choose?

I look forward to hearing your opinions.
Have a great day.

Edited by BluDevStudio, 31 May 2008 - 05:43 PM.

[rc69]

I personally prefer table forums just because of the "forums are basically tabular data" argument. Since i'm not a "creative" person myself, i can't imagine a way to "think outside of the table" as you put it.

I know phpBB 3 uses divs. I'm not quite sure if it's 100% or just mostly, but i do know they're used.

[Mr. Matt]

Its quite interesting that you should bring this up actually. I've spent the last few months developing a forum which is to be used on 50 websites (soon to be more). You can see one of them here. As you can see from the main forum page, show topic page and listing the topics they look like a regular forum. Up until a few days ago they were compleatly different.

Me and the designer wanted to try somthing different with forums, see if we can break the mould, we managed to kind of do it with the showtopic page, but the hard bit was the other pages.

Here is an example of how the forum index and showforum pages looked:



I don't have a screenshot of the listing topics, but if followed the same kind of style with the users avatar on there. The hard part is just trying to get data on there so it is easy to read, like how many topics and replies, or views etc, but thats why the decision was taken to switch to what you can currently see.

Edited by Mr. Matt, 01 June 2008 - 03:36 AM.

[Chaos King]

I think it depends on which part of the forum you are showing.

In some aspects, I think that on a member list for instance, you should use tabular data. Because there is no point in floating all those containers and then clearing them on reach row.

Maybe on a profile page or another creative page where you won't necessary need tabular data, sure go again, switch to tableless.

I personally think that people try to make it a new trend to make everything tableless when it is not needed. I know I am guilty of this but there are a reason why tables were created and there is nothing wrong with them standard wise, they will still pass the w3c tests.

So I would say, use both where its the most appropriate.

[rc69]

You just brought up another reason for why i prefer tables over CSS for forums: semantics. What happens with the CSS fails to download? Using divs, you get a TON of rows of pointless stuff. Using tables, the basic structure is still there, so while it may not look pretty, it is still readable.

[BluDevStudio]

Now thats a really good point rc69. And great work Mr. Matt. And you're right Chaos, everyones trying to make everything tableless lol its humorous. Wonder what the next trend will be after div/css's
Thank you all for answering

[NGPixel]

Unfortunately, there's a on-going trend that tables are bad in all situations and you should never use them. It all depends on what you're displaying. Combination of both is usually the best solution.

[dEcade]

I personally prefer divs only. The reason is I never really learnt tables that well. When I first started building websites I used tables but I also used the view where I could see what was happening on frontpage. But now that I've learned CSS and how to use divs I use the HTML layout. I couldn't put an HTML table in some where if my life depended on it. So for me, its divs all the way. I find that it looks a lot neater. Also you can do pretty much anything with divs that you can do with tables so a forum would work too. It would be easier making the skin from scratch if the existing skins use tables because otherwise it would be a pain in the butt.

Edited by dEcade, 02 June 2008 - 09:43 PM.

[NGPixel]

dEcade, on Jun 2 2008, 09:42 PM, said:

I personally prefer divs only. The reason is I never really learnt tables that well. When I first started building websites I used tables but I also used the view where I could see what was happening on frontpage. But now that I've learned CSS and how to use divs I use the HTML layout. I couldn't put an HTML table in some where if my life depended on it. So for me, its divs all the way. I find that it looks a lot neater. Also you can do pretty much anything with divs that you can do with tables so a forum would work too. It would be easier making the skin from scratch if the existing skins use tables because otherwise it would be a pain in the butt.

lol, exactly what I was talking about. People that are afraid of tables and would prefer to die than having to use them.

[Chaos King]

Hah. I know I am like that sometimes. I will admit but at the end of the day, no one is ever going to win that argument.

[Hoot]

No tables > Tables
Without tables the load time is quicker and you can make everything look exactly the same as with tables if.

Hoot

[rc69]

Hoot, on Jun 4 2008, 05:54 PM, said:

Without tables the load time is quicker...

By fractions of a second that nobody would notice... Honestly, i've heard the no tables argument hundreds of times, but you want to know something interesting? In my computer science classes, i hear the exact same argument everyday, the catch is, it has nothing to do with tables.

It goes like this: Programming languages in the early days were developed with efficiency in mind because computers were slow (this is like the argument for CSS you just gave...). More modern languages however, seek to improve the experience for the programmer by making programming easier, more convenient.

So here's how it breaks down. CSS may be faster, but when it comes to making a table-like structure, nothing is easier than using a table. Not to mention the sematic argument i gave before (could anybody here imagine making a phpMyAdmin like program without the aid of a table?).

Gah... This started as a poll about table/tableless forums and has turned into an argument about which is literally better. I won't complain about a rebuttal to my argument, but lets try to get back to being closer to on topic

Edited by rc69, 04 June 2008 - 11:02 PM.

[NGPixel]

To make everybody here happy, V5 will be coded using TABLES ONLY!

Just kidding! It does use a few tables there and there though.

[albinoAZN]

NGPixel, on Jun 5 2008, 12:51 AM, said:

Best emoticon EVAR!

[Ghost]

The idea that tables take longer to load is barely a reason to move to div's, especially for tabular content such as forums. If the forum design was made to be more basic, then sure, div's could be used. But in cases, like the board index on these forums, tables are a much better choice in my opinion.

There are definitely cases in which div's would be better, such as the green/blue headers on top of tables, header coding, container, etc.. but for data which is meant to look like it's in a table SHOULD be in a table..

That's my opinion anyway..

[Faken]

I'm using a table right now... HAR HAR!

[albinoAZN]

oh my.... how lame Dan.

[Faken]

albinoAZN, on Jun 16 2008, 03:38 PM, said:

oh my.... how lame Dan.

[Phaaze]

I've recently coded an IPB forum in table-less just for the fun... It wasn't too difficult, the main annoyance is trying to vertically center things...

I used to know tables and only tables, but since table-less became popular, I've learned it. Now I've moved on to Javascript, PHP, and most recently, ActionScript.

Anyway, the debate is one that will never end. In todays world of modern technology, I think it all comes down to what the programmers or client wants. It also depends upon the type of site, if your site is going to target blind people; you'll focus on being more semantic with your code and less on graphics and such.

- Devon