82 replies to this topic

[Erik Bernskiold]

Everyone has their different opinions on this! I am using Firefox mainly because of the function of Tabbed Browsing. I used to run Opera but I switched to Firefox mainly because of many sites and login systems doesn't run well in opera.

I find that Opera and IE/FF differes alot coding wise. While most sites that works in IE currently runs perfect in FF things are missing in Opera. While Opera optimized sites doesn't work the best on IE/FF. The things often lie in the "core" coding of the browser.

Opera I refer to is the smartest browser, as it corrects many html errors itself, which is great. But IE and FF don't do that which makes Opera a browser bad for layout testing.

While I strive to make my sites look greaty in all browsers they might not be perfect in all. But I would never put a "To Cool For IE" banner on my site.

I don't hate IE, FF or Opera, neither do I think anyone of them is the best. But I hope you all can agree that a browser containing the best in all these browsers would possibly be the best browser.

PS: There are more browsers for Mac, Linux etc. But as I am not familiar with them I didn't include it.

* Everyone may have their own opinions and not be a person less worth.
* This thread has become a war...

[Jaymz]

* This thread has become a war...

This article is not about which browser is better and such debates will be removed

[Erik Bernskiold]

There I agree with you, fully, which was also a meaning with my topic, to hopefully end that discussin about it in this topic. I am getting a bit tired of it here! Thanks Jaymz!

[Dirtnap]

I had wriiten a long rant longer than faken's but i decided to get rid of it.

To those that want too are do displat "too cool for IE" thing:

I use IE and like it, if you think your cooler than me and that your site is too for me, then good for you.

If you think your cooler than 80% of the world and that your site is too cool for them, then good for you.

You did however spend serveral minutes uploading and linking an image on your website that tells everyone just how cool you and your site are, how cool are you?

Edited by Dirtnap, 28 December 2005 - 09:07 PM.

[Artemis]

I'm sure if they took the time to check their logs, they would notice that the majority of their traffic uses IE.

This is not true for everyone. While I do try my best to code my sites for cross browser compatibility (dunno about Mac users, haven't ran across any to check my site for me), I do advertise Firefox plainly on my site, and would never shut out an IE visitor (try to convince them to use FF yes, but never shut them out if they don't). On one of my sites, only 10% of my visitors are using IE (the site I promote FF the heaviest, which is my blog), on another of my sites 41% of my visitors use IE, and on my professional commercial site where I do not promote FF that much... 54% are using IE.

On a side note to those who like IE..... I guess if you had to deal with emails on a daily basis where people whine that they cannot save the lineart in gif format because it wants to save as bmp (this is on yet another commercial site), then perhaps you would have the same distaste for IE as I do. I get tired of helping people fix a MS product when Bill Gates should be fixing it himself If I'm going to be a support center for IE, then I should be getting paid lol. I wont say FF is the better browser (cuz Faken would spank me), but I will say that I prefer Firefox.... if anything else because of the neat toys (extensions) you can get for it rofl.

Artemis

*Edit* Everyone please, have a safe and happy New Year!!

Edited by Artemis, 31 December 2005 - 06:33 AM.

[kevinoneill]

Cross browser compatability is part of the job. If your a webmaster/designer, whatever, and you don't have atleast 4 different browsers on your computer to check for compatability, regardless of which you use for personal surfing, then I know of a very good cliff for you to jump off.

I chuckled when I first read this, because I just last night at 4am. put a Get FireFox banner on my site (www.irekevin.com ). Haha!

I design on a Mac/Safari, then I check on Firefox, then Opera, then my OLD version of IE, then I proceed to walk across the room to my brothers room (now i have to go to work seeing he moved out) and check on FireFox and IE on the PC.

[MilkyWay]

But the practice of FORCING people to download a particular browser to view your website is nothing short of asinine.

Yes indeed, people shouldn't be doing that. Let me tell you a story:

This one day I got to the computer, and for some reason I needed to install Service Pack 2. So I followed the instructions and finally the computer told me to go to the website and download it. So I pressed the link. Firefox opened and it said I needed IE 5.0 or better to view this site. (the strange thing was that I had IE 6.0 installed...) I agree with Your opinion abuot other people doing that but hell, isn't that kind of an Overkill?

[Jaymz]

Firefox opened and it said I needed IE 5.0 or better to view this site. (the strange thing was that I had IE 6.0 installed...) I agree with Your opinion abuot other people doing that but hell, isn't that kind of an Overkill?

Microsoft is exempt as they use ActiveX controls to update their software I believe a lot of the Windows Update tools are built into IE

[codie]

okay i have read about 15 posts so if i say somthing thts already bin said srry for dat

okay sure majority of users are IE and thts fine and people who say they dont like IE thts fine too but its not about blocing them out of the world its about tolerating people desicions and choices.

most people who use IE are eldarly people or people who arnt very computer jazzy, they dont know anybetter, but even saying tht most bowsers have thier weak point (i think)


also if this guy is trying to get people o change from IE to another browser whats the point in making a site tht they cant see, if they cant see itthere not gunna no to change and they will just keep using there browser .


in my eyes if people are making these its just because they have too much spear time.


somthing positive i have found about sites like tht, i learnt about a new browser omni browser


scream at me if wrong or if its already been discused

Edited by codie, 02 January 2006 - 09:32 PM.

[siliconsara]

As a person who is really into webpage building, I guess I decided to finally sign up and add my two cents...I have been lurking around here enough as it is.

Anyway, I am not an IE user but I try my best to make my webpage span across as many browsers as possible. I got fustrated because most of the CSS selectors that I had used did not work in IE, so I had to code an entirely new stylesheet and use a CSS hack so IE would be able to use it. Because of the CSS hack, my site is CSS and XHTML invalid...and that will piss off the CSS/XHTML nazis (cousin of the grammar nazi!). At one point, my Mac friends told me they couldn't see my site in Mac for IE, and it made my contempt for IE to grow at huge proportions. I also considered putting the T.C.F.IE badge on my site, but decided not to because deep down I know that the majority of all internet users still use IE. I will have to put my hatred for IE in the backseat if I want everyone to see my blog.

I now have 3 browsers on my computer because of my need for my site design to be cross browser. I have IE, FireFox and Opera and I use this site to test in Safari. I think that if I can get my website to work in the 4 main browsers, then the smaller known browsers will probably work as well.

However, I use Opera for my normal web browsing. I only use FF and IE for web testing.

What I am trying to say in reply to Faken's article, is that there's so much incompatibility between browsers...some web designers like myself just want to drop IE from the testing board altogether. So much extra work has to be done for a site to even just be readable in IE. I agree that the T.C.F.IE badges are very rude...much like how I think that people shove the idea that their webpage is CSS and XHTML valid by putting unneeded badges on their site. It's all one big egotisitical circle jerk and I try to distance myself from that as much as I can. It seems people today are more worried about the look of their website instead of their content. And that upsets me slightly.

If someone doesn't code their page for IE and puts that badge up, then let them. Just leave their site. They decided that their visitors are less important than their time and workload. Making webpages is not easy work and people need to realize that before they start to put these badges on their site. I do think that "the internet is serious business"...I really do, and my website shows that (which BTW, if anyone tries to visit, I am sorry but it's down because, well, I am TESTING it before it goes live *winkwink*)

[Wybe]

I'll be the devil's advocate for today. How about some webmasters like to design websites for fun, and not neccesarily for visitors. I don't redesign my website because I think the layout has become too old or something, but because I like to. Websites are like drawing and painting to me, only you can do so much more with it.

True that I see it a challenge to make it cross-browser compatible, and that's why I try. But if you're not experienced in this, this part may not be fun to do either so why should you do it?

[siliconsara]

I'll be the devil's advocate for today. How about some webmasters like to design websites for fun, and not neccesarily for visitors. I don't redesign my website because I think the layout has become too old or something, but because I like to. Websites are like drawing and painting to me, only you can do so much more with it.

True that I see it a challenge to make it cross-browser compatible, and that's why I try. But if you're not experienced in this, this part may not be fun to do either so why should you do it?

That's perfectly fine. But it's when people who code for profit or those who code community websites and yet they place that "tool cool" badge on their sites and decide not to support one of the most-used browsers used today...then it becomes a problem.

Let me re-phrase that...it's not really a problem...it's just rude and tasteless; especially if you make this a career instead of a hobby. I plan on taking web design as a career so that is why cross-browser compatibility is important to me.

[Keir]

I completley agree with the initial post in this thread.

I have come across these sites where people proudly display their little 'Too Cool For IE' badges in the corner of the window more often than I care to remember, and half the time I was in IE. The sites would fail to render properly due to bad coding, and I know well enough the stats on my own website. About 60-70% of my visitors use Internet Explorer.

As has been said, I'm sure a lot of people feel forced into redesigning their website to be one of the 103% CSS websites that have become, for some reason, the latest 'must have'.

I'm leaving one of my sites in its current tablular format until I feel like redesiging it. It displays fine in all the major browsers, as pretty much any tablular based design will, so I don't see an iminent rush to bother changing. When I do decide to redesign it, I will most probably build it using CSS, just to stop the preachers who think anyone who uses a tabular design should be shot.

If you can't design your site to be cross browser using CSS, either LEARN how to do it, or simply don't bother. Just dont stick a 'Too Cool For IE' label on it and figure that anyone using IE isn't good enough to view your website as you intended it to be viewed.

If your website is cross-browser compatible, then by all means put a little badge in the corner to promote your prefered browser, but dont critisise people for the browser they choose to use. They are entitled to use what they want.

This whole situation has wound me up somewhat over the past couple of months. Now everyone should be running a website designed 100% using CSS. Now if you use a table for anything except displaying data, then you are classed as being a 'n00b'.

For those who are new to the whole web design scene, you will be able to pick it up far easier than someone who is set in their way's when it comes to designing using tables. Those of us who have been using tables for X years, have to basically forget most of what we've learnt and start fresh learning CSS.

Basically, if your website is not cross browser compatible, you shouldn't be displaying a 'Too Cool For IE' badge on it. Whether your too lazy, or don't know how to make it cross browser compatible is no reason to figure that popping a little badge in the corner will magically make everyone who visits your site see the light and change to a more modern browser.

If you are so 'up with the times' in using CSS to design your website, then there is no excuse as to why you shouldn't be 'up with the times' in building your website to the standards set by the W3C. If you keep with the standards, then your website will most likley work with IE, and any small bugs with IE and Web Standards have been extensivly documented, with solutions and workarounds a simple google search away.

[siliconsara]

As has been said, I'm sure a lot of people feel forced into redesigning their website to be one of the 103% CSS websites that have become, for some reason, the latest 'must have'.

I'm leaving one of my sites in its current tablular format until I feel like redesiging it. It displays fine in all the major browsers, as pretty much any tablular based design will, so I don't see an iminent rush to bother changing. When I do decide to redesign it, I will most probably build it using CSS, just to stop the preachers who think anyone who uses a tabular design should be shot.

If your website is cross-browser compatible, then by all means put a little badge in the corner to promote your prefered browser, but dont critisise people for the browser they choose to use. They are entitled to use what they want.

This whole situation has wound me up somewhat over the past couple of months. Now everyone should be running a website designed 100% using CSS. Now if you use a table for anything except displaying data, then you are classed as being a 'n00b'.

For those who are new to the whole web design scene, you will be able to pick it up far easier than someone who is set in their way's when it comes to designing using tables. Those of us who have been using tables for X years, have to basically forget most of what we've learnt and start fresh learning CSS.

I am glad I am not the only person who has noticed this.

I started my obsession with webpage stuff in 2001 and at that time the table way was all the rage. All I had to do was splice a graphic into tables and then position it with a bit of CSS. Even the major web design programs encouraged this by offering "wizards" (Fireworks comes to mind).

And now I see that people are going nuts over CSS. I remember when CSS "was that really cool thing you do to make your links look neat". Now it's used for everything under the sun, and I am STILL learning the basics. This has set me back quite a bit in re-designing my site. Each time I code a layout, there's a new standard to replace the "old" stuff I have been using.

I think my cake was "taken" when I used a open source WordPress theme from a guy who was one of those XHTML/CSS demigods and I designed it to my liking and used it for my blog. He found my website through technorati and emailed me saying he loved the graphic work I did on it, but then he said he checked my source code, and he technically gave me a lecture on my positioning of divs and such as well as my CSS application. He also kinda chewed on me when I had my divs set like tables (where I had nothing in the div, it was empty like how I used to create my tables with background images). I guess now I am just ranting...but I just want to explain that I have had first account of this. Call me an old fart of coding...but it's true when you can't teach an old dog new tricks. But you can always beat them into him. ;P

[Flanders]

Personally, I love Firefox and I think it has so many advantages over Internet Explorer. I wish more people would use Firefox for their own sake. But promoting Firefox to justify your own laziness is just plain stupid. I'm a web designer by trade and I have never run into a conflict with CSS across the many browsers out there. It's not very difficult to cross-browser design, and there's no reason why a professional designer shouldn't be able to handle such a simple task.

[Keir]

I was nervous posting that as I wasn't sure what the feedback would be but it seems, I finally have confirmation that I'm not the only one who hasn't been blinded by a love for CSS.

Those who have been designing sites for years, and have no real interest in CSS are the one's who will find it hardest to change and relearn everything.

Those who are promoting the new surge of CSS will burn the midnight oil ensuring that their new design is 100% cross-browser compatible and standards compliant so they can fit in with the rest of the crowd.

Those who are new to web design get it the easiest. They will learn web design using the CSS techniques and have none of the table design methods clogging up their brain.

Finally, those who are most probably designers used to the table methods, but who want to fit in with the crowd will create a design thats compatible in, for example, Firefox. They will then see it doesnt work in IE (or other browsers) and after a quick fruitless look through their code, slap a 'Too Cool For IE' badge in the corner and be happy with that.

Out of those different groups, I fall under the first group. I simply don't care.

I'll continue creating websites for clients using tables until I feel confident I can do everything to the worlds satisfaction using CSS. You know the great thing about table designs? Of course you do! It'll look pretty much identical in any browser with no added hassle. Why is everybody suddenly deciding CSS is the new way to go. Surely this 'surge' shouldn't have happened until the majority of people used a browser that supports CSS fully. But no, instead it seems it has to be done now, when around 70% of people are using a browser thats years and years out of date. It makes no sense.

Why are we now forced to go through countless bug fixes and 'IE Hacks' simply to get a website to display properly, when we could be using tables for another year or two until most people are on a vaigly new browser?

Yes, I'm ranting somewhat right now and I know about all the usual benefits of CSS such as cleaner code, easily change a complete site layout by changing one file, blah blah. Sure, there's a few pro's to it, but at the moment, in my opinion, the con's far outweigh the pro's.

We've managed for X years, so I'm sure another one or two wouldn't matter, but of course it does. Because when something new comes out, everybody has to have it, and anyone that doesnt is 'so behind the times'.

I mean to hell with it, in my opinion, everybody should build their websites 100% in flash to ensure cross browser compatibility, and cuz its like SO newer than CSS. I mean, CSS was created like....FOREVER ago! Flash is the newest! Anyone not using flash is a n00b!!!!!!
[/sarcasm]

Anyway, enough of me ranting for a while eh

[Donna]

lol Keir, I tend to agree with a lot you say.

Thanks for adding your comments.

[Keir]

No problem. I've been a user of Pixel2Life for a while now and decided it was about time I signed up and gave something back

[ludwigw]

Ok, my turn

Personally I prefer CSS, as I have astounded myself and many other people at just how easy it is so seperate design and data, enabling you to change the entire look of a site by changing one file.

I really love the fact that with one set of files I can have 4 or 5 different looks by having different stylesheets and I am really excited about the fact that it is becoming more common.

When people ask me for aid with tables I will answer their question but also point out to them that there is an alternative, which is CSS and give them some links so that if they are interested they can go and do the research themselves and sicover for themselves how great (or maybe awful) CSS is.

When I see a site designed in tables I won't go criticize the people, and especially won't call them a n00b because that is just plain rude.), because at a time I myself used tables and quite like the aspects they bring to the table. (no pun intended)

But the fact of the matter is that where the wave goes the surfer must follow. It's like with browsers, IE is different but most are with it so you have to design (or compensate) for IE. There is now a wave going to CSS and at the moment CSS sites are really big, their really in the spotlight and because of all this hype people want xHTML 1.1 and CSS sites.

Also the validators I don't think is a bad thing. But something to be proud of. You designed your site (burnt the midnight oil, yes) and worked hard to make your code right, make it follow the standards set by the larger population. And adding those 'badges' (a great name for them btw) is a great symbol of your work and should make you feel proud - because you set out to accomplish something and you did.

Now don't get me wrong -I am not telling you that you are wrong (this is just my point of view) nor am I telling you to use CSS and get all your pages validated, then display those badges. I am just saying -people do things for a reason and sometimes it's something that you find stupid but other don't.

Now on-topic

The too cool for IE thing is arrogant and stupid. When 80% of internet users browse with IE it is pretty idiotic to say I am Too Cool For IE. That means you are saying, " I am sorry 80% of the world (the normal population who aren't geeky) but I am too cool for you, I know of Firefox/Opera and it pwns, so screw you - my site isn't gonna work for you."

(Look up geeky, it means over-obsessive-computer-user)

rant over.

[Av-]

WHAT IN THE WORLD IS WRONG WITH TABLES????
i wont bother learning xhtml if someone will give me a very good reason or tables are not supported by browser anymore.
I still make all my sites with tables, it might be old-fashioned, but atleast they work in all browsers...